<div dir="ltr"><div><div>Hi Arend,<br><br></div> Sure, no problem, glad to see the exercise was useful! <br><br></div>Doug<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Arend Lammertink <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:lamare@gmail.com" target="_blank">lamare@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">"Hi Doug,<br>
<br>
Thank you so much for performing this experiment. This is the final<br>
nail in the coffin for my idea that the bubbles would react to the<br>
Lorentz force in the magnet electrolysis experiment. In the magnet<br>
electrolysis experiment, I don't see any other way than that indeed<br>
the current flowing trough the electrolyte, carried by ions, makes<br>
the electrolyte rotating because of the Lorentz force (see below).<br>
<br>
<br>
However, further research into Pollack's "EZ" layer phenomena using<br>
bubbles and magnets can still be considered. Zoltan wrote:<br>
<br>
"The EZ layer is a very thin negative space charge at the very surface<br>
of the electrolyte, which is surrounded by a layer of positive space<br>
charge that neutralizes the E field of the negative EZ layer. They are<br>
bound together by electric forces and move together. They behave like<br>
an array of large dipoles on the surface. There is no resultant<br>
Lorentz force acting on moving dipoles in a B filed. The Lorentz<br>
forces that would act on negative charges are neutralized by the<br>
forces acting on the positive charges, because they are bound together<br>
and move in the same direction."<br>
<br>
I pretty much agree with this, but I would also not that the surface<br>
of a bubble is also a "surface of the electrolyte".<br>
<br>
Now Pollack discovered this "EZ" layer when investigating the surface<br>
of hydrophilic substances, which consist of polar molecules:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrophile" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr>Hydrophile</a><br>
<br>
"Hydrophilic and hydrophobic molecules are also known as polar<br>
molecules and nonpolar molecules, respectively. "<br>
<br>
<br>
So, I checked whether or not O2, H2 and CO2 are polar:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110405135849AAxG1BV" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://answers.yahoo.com/<wbr>question/index?qid=<wbr>20110405135849AAxG1BV</a><br>
"In a ‘homonuclear diatomic molecule’ - that is, a molecule in which<br>
both atoms are identical - there’s no reason why the shared electrons<br>
would tend to be found closer to one atom than the other. So<br>
homonuclear diatomic molecules (in this case H2 and O2) have no<br>
permanent dipole.<br>
<br>
[...]<br>
<br>
In CO2, each of the C=O bonds has a permanent dipole, with the shared<br>
electrons more at the oxygen end than the carbon end. But, since the<br>
O=C=O molecule is linear, the two equal but opposite dipole moments (<br>
<---+ and +--->) cancel each other out, and the molecule, as a whole,<br>
has no resultant dipole moment."<br>
<br>
So, nether H2, O2 nor CO2 are polar and since we saw no reaction of<br>
CO2 molecules to the magnet, in the electrolysis experiment the<br>
rotation must be caused by the Lorentz force acting upon the ion<br>
carried currents in the electrolyte.<br>
<br>
<br>
This makes one wonder if (small) bubbles of a gas which molecules have<br>
a permanent dipole moment would result in an extended "EZ" layer<br>
around such a bubble and, if yes, if the "layer of positive space<br>
charge that neutralizes the E field of the negative EZ layer"<br>
(consisting of H+ ions) could be (partly) "dragged off" when the<br>
bubble moves up trough the electrolyte. If that is possible, we could<br>
either get a net negatively charged bubble, or a dipole between the<br>
bubble and the positively charged H+ ion "tail". And in that case, we<br>
could still see some reaction due to the Lorentz force, which could<br>
give further insight in the "EZ" phenomenon.<br>
<br>
Another consideration could be to work with an alkaline solution in<br>
order to decrease the concentration of H+ ions. However, that would<br>
still leave other positively charged ions, so no net change of the<br>
charge distribution around the bubble, although heavier positively<br>
charged ions could show more "drag" than H+ ions.<br>
<br>
In other words: it could still be interesting to think further about<br>
this and to consider some follow up experiments.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Arend.<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 9:47 PM, Doug Marett <<a href="mailto:dm88dm@gmail.com">dm88dm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Arend,<br>
><br>
> Sorry, I pasted the wrong link for that bubble test of mine, here is the<br>
> correct link:<br>
> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP1_rEpgDRo&feature=youtu.be" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?<wbr>v=DP1_rEpgDRo&feature=youtu.be</a><br>
><br>
> Doug<br>
><br>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Doug Marett <<a href="mailto:dm88dm@gmail.com">dm88dm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Hi Arend,<br>
>><br>
>> Thanks for the additional feedback. I followed up on your suggestion<br>
>> and tried to bubble a gas over the magnet in a water bath to see if the<br>
>> bubbles would curve due to the Lorentz effect (assuming they might be<br>
>> negatively charged as you suggest). I made a short video of the result here:<br>
>> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS4PkR_BkRo" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?<wbr>v=eS4PkR_BkRo</a> (unlisted).<br>
>> I found bubbling air problematic, since the bubbles were too big, I<br>
>> eventually settled on generating CO2 from evanescent sodium bicarbonate in<br>
>> water. This made nice bubbles but I could not get them to react to the<br>
>> magnet - they seemed to go just straight up. I don't know if this is because<br>
>> they were neutrally charged, or if the velocity was too slow. Anyway, I gave<br>
>> it a try and you can view the result at the above link.<br>
>><br>
>> Doug<br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 3:44 AM, Arend Lammertink <<a href="mailto:lamare@gmail.com">lamare@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Hi Doug and group,<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:27 AM, Doug Marett <<a href="mailto:dm88dm@gmail.com">dm88dm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> > Hi Arend and the group,<br>
>>> ><br>
>>> > Just to be thorough, I thought I had better perform the actual<br>
>>> > experiment<br>
>>> > with the magnet in the electrolysis bath just to be sure that the flows<br>
>>> > obeyed the predictions of the Lorentz force. This didn't take long, so<br>
>>> > I<br>
>>> > have a video prepared already that was just posted tonight to YouTube<br>
>>> > at:<br>
>>> > <a href="https://youtu.be/HXAVyzxRSS0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/HXAVyzxRSS0</a><br>
>>> > I also used this opportunity to see if the motion of the charged<br>
>>> > particles would be influenced by rotating the magnet underneath the<br>
>>> > bath,<br>
>>> > which is a test included in the video.<br>
>>> ><br>
>>><br>
>>> Interesting experiment!<br>
>>><br>
>>> What would happen if you were to pump tiny bubbles of air into the<br>
>>> water, while a magnet is present either in the fluid or just<br>
>>> underneath it?<br>
>>><br>
>>> You see, there is a rather interesting presentation by Prof. Gerald<br>
>>> Pollack, who discovered that a 4th state of water exists:<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS4PkR_BkRo" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?<wbr>v=eS4PkR_BkRo</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> "Gerald Pollack - This paper largely comprises a draft chapter of my<br>
>>> forthcoming book, The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid and<br>
>>> Vapor (Ebner and Sons, 2012). I preface it by providing some<br>
>>> background. School children learn that water has three phases: solid,<br>
>>> liquid and vapor. But we recently uncovered what appears to be a<br>
>>> fourth phase. This phase occurs next to water-loving (hydrophilic)<br>
>>> surfaces. It is surprisingly extensive, projecting out from the<br>
>>> hydrophilic surface by up to millions of molecular layers.<br>
>>> A principal attribute of this phase is that it excludes particles and<br>
>>> solutes because of its liquid crystalline nature. We have therefore<br>
>>> labeled this phase the "exclusion zone" or EZ for short. Of particular<br>
>>> significance is the observation that the EZ is [negatively] charged;<br>
>>> and, the water just beyond is oppositely charged. This creates a<br>
>>> battery that can produce current. We found that light recharges this<br>
>>> battery. Thus, water can receive and process electromagnetic energy<br>
>>> drawn from the environment - much like plants. The material below<br>
>>> outlines the evidence that water acts as a battery. "<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> According to his theory, this liquid crystallic state of water, akin<br>
>>> to ice, is negatively charged and is a/o formed at the surface of a<br>
>>> water-air boundary. So, it this is correct, any gas bubble under water<br>
>>> would be surrounded by such a negatively charged EZ layer and thus one<br>
>>> would expect any bubble moving under water in a magnetic field to be<br>
>>> influenced by the Lorentz force.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Might be an interesting experiment...<br>
>>><br>
>>> Regards,<br>
>>><br>
>>> Arend.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> > Doug<br>
>>> ><br>
>>> ><br>
>>> ><br>
>>> > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Arend Lammertink <<a href="mailto:lamare@gmail.com">lamare@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> > wrote:<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >> Hi Doug,<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Doug Marett <<a href="mailto:dm88dm@gmail.com">dm88dm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> >> > Also, crucially important is<br>
>>> >> > the recent experimental observation that superfluids can support<br>
>>> >> > the<br>
>>> >> > propagation of transverse waves<br>
>>> >> > <a href="https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/07/990730072958.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.sciencedaily.com/<wbr>releases/1999/07/990730072958.<wbr>htm</a><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >> This seems to be an interesting experiment. I found a few places where<br>
>>> >> the Nature paper "Discovery of the Acoustic Faraday Effect in<br>
>>> >> Superfluid 3He-B " behind this news report can be downloaded:<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >> <a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/9902129v2" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://arxiv.org/abs/cond-<wbr>mat/9902129v2</a><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >> <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278389486_Discovery_of_the_acoustic_Faraday_effect_in_superfluid_He-3-B" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.researchgate.net/<wbr>publication/278389486_<wbr>Discovery_of_the_acoustic_<wbr>Faraday_effect_in_superfluid_<wbr>He-3-B</a><br>
>>> >> <a href="https://archive.org/details/arxiv-cond-mat9902129" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://archive.org/details/<wbr>arxiv-cond-mat9902129</a><br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >> Will give this some further thought.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >> Regards,<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >> Arend.<br>
>>> >><br>
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>>> ><br>
>>> ><br>
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>>><br>
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