[Physics] Magnets and gas bubbles in water. Was: Re:How to answer ?

Fri Dec 9 12:49:48 CET 2016

"Hi Doug,

Thank you so much for performing this experiment.  This is the final
nail in the coffin for my idea that the bubbles would react to the
Lorentz force in the magnet electrolysis experiment. In the magnet
electrolysis experiment, I don't see any other way than that indeed
the current flowing trough the electrolyte, carried by ions,  makes
the electrolyte rotating because of the Lorentz force (see below).

However, further research into Pollack's "EZ" layer phenomena using
bubbles and magnets can still be considered. Zoltan wrote:

"The EZ layer is a very thin negative space charge at the very surface
of the electrolyte, which is surrounded by a layer of positive space
charge that neutralizes the E field of the negative EZ layer. They are
bound together by electric forces and move together. They behave like
an array of large dipoles on the surface. There is no resultant
Lorentz force acting on moving dipoles in a B filed. The Lorentz
forces that would act on negative charges are neutralized by the
forces acting on the positive charges, because they are bound together
and move in the same direction."

I pretty much agree with this, but I would also not that the surface
of a bubble is also a "surface of the electrolyte".

Now Pollack discovered this "EZ" layer when investigating the surface
of hydrophilic substances, which consist of polar molecules:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrophile

"Hydrophilic and hydrophobic molecules are also known as polar
molecules and nonpolar molecules, respectively. "

So, I checked whether or not O2, H2 and CO2 are polar:

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110405135849AAxG1BV
"In a ‘homonuclear diatomic molecule’ - that is, a molecule in which
both atoms are identical - there’s no reason why the shared electrons
would tend to be found closer to one atom than the other. So
homonuclear diatomic molecules (in this case H2 and O2) have no
permanent dipole.

[...]

In CO2, each of the C=O bonds has a permanent dipole, with the shared
electrons more at the oxygen end than the carbon end. But, since the
O=C=O molecule is linear, the two equal but opposite dipole moments (
<---+ and +--->) cancel each other out, and the molecule, as a whole,
has no resultant dipole moment."

So, nether H2, O2 nor CO2 are polar and since we saw no reaction of
CO2 molecules to the magnet, in the electrolysis experiment the
rotation must be caused by the Lorentz force acting upon the ion
carried currents in the electrolyte.

This makes one wonder if (small) bubbles of a gas which molecules have
a permanent dipole moment would  result in an extended "EZ" layer
around such a bubble and, if yes, if the "layer of positive space
charge that neutralizes the E field of the negative EZ layer"
(consisting of H+ ions) could be (partly) "dragged off" when the
bubble moves up trough the electrolyte. If that is possible, we could
either get a net negatively charged bubble, or a dipole between the
bubble and the positively charged H+ ion "tail". And in that case, we
could still see some reaction due to the Lorentz force, which could
give further insight in the "EZ" phenomenon.

Another consideration could be to work with an alkaline solution in
order to decrease the concentration of H+ ions. However, that would
still leave other positively charged ions, so no net change of the
charge distribution around the bubble, although heavier positively
charged ions could show more "drag" than H+ ions.

In other words: it could still be interesting to think further about
this and to consider some follow up experiments.

Best regards,

Arend.

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 9:47 PM, Doug Marett <dm88dm at gmail.com> wrote:
> Arend,
>
>    Sorry, I pasted the wrong link for that bubble test of mine, here is the
> correct link:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP1_rEpgDRo&feature=youtu.be
>
> Doug
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Doug Marett <dm88dm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Arend,
>>
>>     Thanks for the additional feedback. I followed up on your suggestion
>> and tried to bubble a gas over the magnet in a water bath to see if the
>> bubbles would curve due to the Lorentz effect (assuming they might be
>> negatively charged as you suggest). I made a short video of the result here:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS4PkR_BkRo (unlisted).
>> I found bubbling air problematic, since the bubbles were too big, I
>> eventually settled on generating CO2 from evanescent sodium bicarbonate in
>> water. This made nice bubbles but I could not get them to react to the
>> magnet - they seemed to go just straight up. I don't know if this is because
>> they were neutrally charged, or if the velocity was too slow. Anyway, I gave
>> it a try and you can view the result at the above link.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 3:44 AM, Arend Lammertink <lamare at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Doug and group,
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:27 AM, Doug Marett <dm88dm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Hi Arend and the group,
>>> >
>>> >    Just to be thorough, I thought I had better perform the actual
>>> > experiment
>>> > with the magnet in the electrolysis bath just to be sure that the flows
>>> > obeyed the predictions of the Lorentz force. This didn't take long, so
>>> > I
>>> > have a video prepared already that was just posted tonight to YouTube
>>> > at:
>>> > https://youtu.be/HXAVyzxRSS0
>>> >    I also used this opportunity to see if the motion of the charged
>>> > particles would be influenced by rotating the magnet underneath the
>>> > bath,
>>> > which is a test included in the video.
>>> >
>>>
>>> Interesting experiment!
>>>
>>> What would happen if you were to pump tiny bubbles of air into the
>>> water, while a magnet is present either in the fluid or just
>>> underneath it?
>>>
>>> You see, there is a rather interesting presentation by Prof. Gerald
>>> Pollack, who discovered that a 4th state of water exists:
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS4PkR_BkRo
>>>
>>> "Gerald Pollack - This paper largely comprises a draft chapter of my
>>> forthcoming book, The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid and
>>> Vapor (Ebner and Sons, 2012). I preface it by providing some
>>> background. School children learn that water has three phases: solid,
>>> liquid and vapor. But we recently uncovered what appears to be a
>>> fourth phase. This phase occurs next to water-loving (hydrophilic)
>>> surfaces. It is surprisingly extensive, projecting out from the
>>> hydrophilic surface by up to millions of molecular layers.
>>> A principal attribute of this phase is that it excludes particles and
>>> solutes because of its liquid crystalline nature. We have therefore
>>> labeled this phase the "exclusion zone" or EZ for short. Of particular
>>> significance is the observation that the EZ is [negatively] charged;
>>> and, the water just beyond is oppositely charged. This creates a
>>> battery that can produce current. We found that light recharges this
>>> battery. Thus, water can receive and process electromagnetic energy
>>> drawn from the environment - much like plants. The material below
>>> outlines the evidence that water acts as a battery. "
>>>
>>>
>>> According to his theory, this liquid crystallic state of water, akin
>>> to ice, is negatively charged and is a/o formed at the surface of a
>>> water-air boundary. So, it this is correct, any gas bubble under water
>>> would be surrounded by such a negatively charged EZ layer and thus one
>>> would expect any bubble moving under water in a magnetic field to be
>>> influenced by the Lorentz force.
>>>
>>> Might be an interesting experiment...
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Arend.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Doug
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Arend Lammertink <lamare at gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Hi Doug,
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Doug Marett <dm88dm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> > Also, crucially important is
>>> >> > the recent experimental  observation that superfluids can support
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > propagation of transverse waves
>>> >> > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/07/990730072958.htm
>>> >>
>>> >> This seems to be an interesting experiment. I found a few places where
>>> >> the Nature paper "Discovery of the Acoustic Faraday Effect in
>>> >> Superfluid 3He-B " behind this news report can be downloaded:
>>> >>
>>> >> https://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/9902129v2
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278389486_Discovery_of_the_acoustic_Faraday_effect_in_superfluid_He-3-B
>>> >> https://archive.org/details/arxiv-cond-mat9902129
>>> >>
>>> >> Will give this some further thought.
>>> >>
>>> >> Regards,
>>> >>
>>> >> Arend.
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Physics mailing list
>>> >> Physics at tuks.nl
>>> >> http://mail.tuks.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/physics
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
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>>>
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>>
>
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