[Physics] Magnets and gas bubbles in water. Was: Re:How to answer ?
Doug Marett
dm88dm at gmail.com
Fri Dec 9 16:37:16 CET 2016
Hi Arend,
Sure, no problem, glad to see the exercise was useful!
Doug
On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 6:49 AM, Arend Lammertink <lamare at gmail.com> wrote:
> "Hi Doug,
>
> Thank you so much for performing this experiment. This is the final
> nail in the coffin for my idea that the bubbles would react to the
> Lorentz force in the magnet electrolysis experiment. In the magnet
> electrolysis experiment, I don't see any other way than that indeed
> the current flowing trough the electrolyte, carried by ions, makes
> the electrolyte rotating because of the Lorentz force (see below).
>
>
> However, further research into Pollack's "EZ" layer phenomena using
> bubbles and magnets can still be considered. Zoltan wrote:
>
> "The EZ layer is a very thin negative space charge at the very surface
> of the electrolyte, which is surrounded by a layer of positive space
> charge that neutralizes the E field of the negative EZ layer. They are
> bound together by electric forces and move together. They behave like
> an array of large dipoles on the surface. There is no resultant
> Lorentz force acting on moving dipoles in a B filed. The Lorentz
> forces that would act on negative charges are neutralized by the
> forces acting on the positive charges, because they are bound together
> and move in the same direction."
>
> I pretty much agree with this, but I would also not that the surface
> of a bubble is also a "surface of the electrolyte".
>
> Now Pollack discovered this "EZ" layer when investigating the surface
> of hydrophilic substances, which consist of polar molecules:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrophile
>
> "Hydrophilic and hydrophobic molecules are also known as polar
> molecules and nonpolar molecules, respectively. "
>
>
> So, I checked whether or not O2, H2 and CO2 are polar:
>
> https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110405135849AAxG1BV
> "In a ‘homonuclear diatomic molecule’ - that is, a molecule in which
> both atoms are identical - there’s no reason why the shared electrons
> would tend to be found closer to one atom than the other. So
> homonuclear diatomic molecules (in this case H2 and O2) have no
> permanent dipole.
>
> [...]
>
> In CO2, each of the C=O bonds has a permanent dipole, with the shared
> electrons more at the oxygen end than the carbon end. But, since the
> O=C=O molecule is linear, the two equal but opposite dipole moments (
> <---+ and +--->) cancel each other out, and the molecule, as a whole,
> has no resultant dipole moment."
>
> So, nether H2, O2 nor CO2 are polar and since we saw no reaction of
> CO2 molecules to the magnet, in the electrolysis experiment the
> rotation must be caused by the Lorentz force acting upon the ion
> carried currents in the electrolyte.
>
>
> This makes one wonder if (small) bubbles of a gas which molecules have
> a permanent dipole moment would result in an extended "EZ" layer
> around such a bubble and, if yes, if the "layer of positive space
> charge that neutralizes the E field of the negative EZ layer"
> (consisting of H+ ions) could be (partly) "dragged off" when the
> bubble moves up trough the electrolyte. If that is possible, we could
> either get a net negatively charged bubble, or a dipole between the
> bubble and the positively charged H+ ion "tail". And in that case, we
> could still see some reaction due to the Lorentz force, which could
> give further insight in the "EZ" phenomenon.
>
> Another consideration could be to work with an alkaline solution in
> order to decrease the concentration of H+ ions. However, that would
> still leave other positively charged ions, so no net change of the
> charge distribution around the bubble, although heavier positively
> charged ions could show more "drag" than H+ ions.
>
> In other words: it could still be interesting to think further about
> this and to consider some follow up experiments.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Arend.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 9:47 PM, Doug Marett <dm88dm at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Arend,
> >
> > Sorry, I pasted the wrong link for that bubble test of mine, here is
> the
> > correct link:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP1_rEpgDRo&feature=youtu.be
> >
> > Doug
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Doug Marett <dm88dm at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Arend,
> >>
> >> Thanks for the additional feedback. I followed up on your suggestion
> >> and tried to bubble a gas over the magnet in a water bath to see if the
> >> bubbles would curve due to the Lorentz effect (assuming they might be
> >> negatively charged as you suggest). I made a short video of the result
> here:
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS4PkR_BkRo (unlisted).
> >> I found bubbling air problematic, since the bubbles were too big, I
> >> eventually settled on generating CO2 from evanescent sodium bicarbonate
> in
> >> water. This made nice bubbles but I could not get them to react to the
> >> magnet - they seemed to go just straight up. I don't know if this is
> because
> >> they were neutrally charged, or if the velocity was too slow. Anyway, I
> gave
> >> it a try and you can view the result at the above link.
> >>
> >> Doug
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 3:44 AM, Arend Lammertink <lamare at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi Doug and group,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:27 AM, Doug Marett <dm88dm at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> > Hi Arend and the group,
> >>> >
> >>> > Just to be thorough, I thought I had better perform the actual
> >>> > experiment
> >>> > with the magnet in the electrolysis bath just to be sure that the
> flows
> >>> > obeyed the predictions of the Lorentz force. This didn't take long,
> so
> >>> > I
> >>> > have a video prepared already that was just posted tonight to YouTube
> >>> > at:
> >>> > https://youtu.be/HXAVyzxRSS0
> >>> > I also used this opportunity to see if the motion of the charged
> >>> > particles would be influenced by rotating the magnet underneath the
> >>> > bath,
> >>> > which is a test included in the video.
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> Interesting experiment!
> >>>
> >>> What would happen if you were to pump tiny bubbles of air into the
> >>> water, while a magnet is present either in the fluid or just
> >>> underneath it?
> >>>
> >>> You see, there is a rather interesting presentation by Prof. Gerald
> >>> Pollack, who discovered that a 4th state of water exists:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS4PkR_BkRo
> >>>
> >>> "Gerald Pollack - This paper largely comprises a draft chapter of my
> >>> forthcoming book, The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid and
> >>> Vapor (Ebner and Sons, 2012). I preface it by providing some
> >>> background. School children learn that water has three phases: solid,
> >>> liquid and vapor. But we recently uncovered what appears to be a
> >>> fourth phase. This phase occurs next to water-loving (hydrophilic)
> >>> surfaces. It is surprisingly extensive, projecting out from the
> >>> hydrophilic surface by up to millions of molecular layers.
> >>> A principal attribute of this phase is that it excludes particles and
> >>> solutes because of its liquid crystalline nature. We have therefore
> >>> labeled this phase the "exclusion zone" or EZ for short. Of particular
> >>> significance is the observation that the EZ is [negatively] charged;
> >>> and, the water just beyond is oppositely charged. This creates a
> >>> battery that can produce current. We found that light recharges this
> >>> battery. Thus, water can receive and process electromagnetic energy
> >>> drawn from the environment - much like plants. The material below
> >>> outlines the evidence that water acts as a battery. "
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> According to his theory, this liquid crystallic state of water, akin
> >>> to ice, is negatively charged and is a/o formed at the surface of a
> >>> water-air boundary. So, it this is correct, any gas bubble under water
> >>> would be surrounded by such a negatively charged EZ layer and thus one
> >>> would expect any bubble moving under water in a magnetic field to be
> >>> influenced by the Lorentz force.
> >>>
> >>> Might be an interesting experiment...
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Arend.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > Doug
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Arend Lammertink <lamare at gmail.com>
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Hi Doug,
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Doug Marett <dm88dm at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> >> > Also, crucially important is
> >>> >> > the recent experimental observation that superfluids can support
> >>> >> > the
> >>> >> > propagation of transverse waves
> >>> >> > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/07/990730072958.htm
> >>> >>
> >>> >> This seems to be an interesting experiment. I found a few places
> where
> >>> >> the Nature paper "Discovery of the Acoustic Faraday Effect in
> >>> >> Superfluid 3He-B " behind this news report can be downloaded:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> https://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/9902129v2
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278389486_
> Discovery_of_the_acoustic_Faraday_effect_in_superfluid_He-3-B
> >>> >> https://archive.org/details/arxiv-cond-mat9902129
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Will give this some further thought.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Regards,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Arend.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> Physics mailing list
> >>> >> Physics at tuks.nl
> >>> >> http://mail.tuks.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/physics
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > _______________________________________________
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> >>>
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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